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richard1
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Post subject: roll bar
 Posted: Feb 08, 2010 - 06:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 05, 2008
neath south wales
Posts: 48
Status: Offline
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hi all
nearly finished my DB 996 i am going to attempt to put the roll bar on and i want to know what is the legal hight the roll bar got to be as i got to put it into 2 pieces to get it in the garage.
many thanks
Richard |
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john1694
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Post subject: RE: roll bar
Posted: Feb 08, 2010 - 09:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 12, 2009
Cumbria
Posts: 675
Status: Offline
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As far as I know there is no legal "height" for the roll-bar, but that it must obviously be high enough for someone to sit below it on the driving-seat to be protected whilst driving...
However; when you "put it into 2 pieces", did this involves you cutting it, or it came apart at a manufactured joint?? This is quite important as, strictly-speaking, it "was" illegal to modify a bar/frame/cab UNLESS it met all the relevant standards AFTER the modification....
Legally - please be careful. Morally.............well - please be careful!!  |
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broadsword
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 08, 2010 - 10:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 12, 2008
Holmfirth, Huddersfield
Posts: 901
Status: Offline
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Richard,
just out of interest - what sort of roll bar are you fitting??. I take it as its a 996 you have square wings on it so are going to fabriacte something from the origanal roll cage which bolts onto the top of the wings???
If you manage it any chance of a photo as to how you did it. I have a sqaure wing model with the cab taken off, I only have a small clearance in my garage and you cannot fit a normal roll bar (folding) onto the square wing model.??
A picture of your solution would be gratefully received.
Cheers
Andy |
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john1694
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 08, 2010 - 10:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 12, 2009
Cumbria
Posts: 675
Status: Offline
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Andy, I repeat the same. The frame of the square-wing models could removed at the height of the wings - but any modofication would place you in a difficult position if anything ( hopefully not )should happen after that "mod".
You could modify your frame to allow you to get into lower places without removing the top half at the "approved" joint. However, if you do this you MUST have it approved...and this would most easily be doen through the HSE.
"Home made" roll bars and frames ( and modifications of approved versions ) are NOT, NOT, NOT suitable when it comes to the aftermath of a serious accident.
 PLEASE BE WARNED. |
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broadsword
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 08, 2010 - 11:46 PM
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Joined: Jun 12, 2008
Holmfirth, Huddersfield
Posts: 901
Status: Offline
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I will re-phrase my query then.
If someone (let us say a close friend) was to have a square wing 990 with no cab or roll cage fitted at all and wanted to do the next best thing to make it as safe as possible whilst conforming to HSE rules and inspection, what would be the best way of doing it to allow access to a low garage??????
Cheers
Andy |
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john1694
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 09, 2010 - 01:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 12, 2009
Cumbria
Posts: 675
Status: Offline
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Andy, HS is a bluddy minefield, and I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole except that it occupies a huge amount of my work-time. The following IS WITHOUT PREJUDICE:
If your friend did nothing at all, and only drove it himself, then he would only become liable for injury if the tractor was used IN WORK - where it should be equipped with a frame/roll-bar these days. Out of work ( for shows, etc ) he would not be liable. This only applies to HIM, and not a third-party...nobody else can drive/ride on the tractor. A good lawyer would swing this either way...
Of course, removing a frame/bar to gain access to a specific builing is fine - but it becomes dodgy if anyone else is driving at the time of an accident...
If he fits an approved cab/bar in accordance with the instructions, then anyone can drive it, and he will not be liable.
If he fits an approved cab/bar but modifies it IN ANY WAY, then he will be liable for his or any third-party injury AT ANY TIME. The only way around this is to have the modification/s tested and approved officially, and certified in writing.
Bear in mind that "modifications" can be as simple as drilling the frame to fit a lamp bracket.
The problem is that too many legal-eagles these days will work on a "no-win-no-fee" basis, and will do so by trawling up the most ridiculous technicalities...
The best advice I can give is; do it properly or not at all - and if need be GET IT TESTED.
The local HSE ( bu66ers as they are ) are the best source of info if you're unsure. |
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slider
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 09, 2010 - 07:54 AM
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Joined: Sep 12, 2009
Barrow Cheshire
Posts: 49
Status: Offline
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Hi Andy
Another issue is that of insurance if you intend to use it on the public h/way ( being married to an insurance under writer) any mods could invalidate your insurance should you be invoved in accident of any sort no matter how minor. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 09, 2010 - 11:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Warwickshire
Posts: 2608
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john1694 wrote:
The best advice I can give is; do it properly or not at all - and if need be GET IT TESTED.
It used to be the case that to get a roll bar tested you had to manufacture two and one was tested to destruction. |
_________________
 
Three is twee, four is poor, but 6 just clicks........Scooby
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Powerrabbit
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 09, 2010 - 12:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Devon
Posts: 3027
Status: Offline
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In accordance with the Law, any tractor that was fitted with an anti-roll over protection device, safetey frame or safetey cab at the time of manufacture (factory fitted) must comply to the standards of the Law as it stands today and such should not be altered in any way from its original specifications and must remain fitted to the tractor. The only time that it may be removed is to give access to low buildings or for an operation that would impede or restrict the use of the tractor and must be re-fitted after the operation. If a tractor was manufacured before the legislation came in there is no legal requirement that a roll-over safetey device has to be fitted. However, If such a device has been retrospectiveley fitted, it must be approved for use on the tractor models shown on the attached approval plate. If there is no such device fitted to a tractor, pre roll-bar and cab days, anyone can operate the tractor but the operator, if not the owner, must be aware of any potential danger and carry out a risk assesment before the operation. Technically, any tractor with cab/roll-bar safetey devices should be fit for its purpose and with age a lot of these cabs etc are so rotten that they are no longer technically legal to either use or even sell, it has been suggested that all tractors sold either through dealers, traders and privately should have a Ministry certificate to say that it has been inspected and complies with the Law. It could come in the not too distant future.
Another pertinent point, an owner driver does not have to by Law need to have guards fitted to tractors and machinery but must be aware of the risks and insurance implications that this would carry. However, if an employee or anyone else drives the tractor and operates machinery, the owner (which includes lender) must ensure that all necessary guarding equipment is fitted. |
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John.Newman
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 09, 2010 - 12:18 PM
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Joined: May 27, 2007
Gowrie Junction, via Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Posts: 194
Status: Offline
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For low clearance options, there are some ROPS available here in Australia which are designed and certified to fold down for working inside buildings. They use pins to lock them in the raised position. Below is a friends Chamberlain 9G with this folding ROPS. Weight of tractor is just over 4 tons fully ballasted. These ROPS are supplied by Bareco here. Website address is www.bareco.com.au
Richard, if you could get a bar like this certified for use in the UK, it would solve all your problems regarding height.
Cost of these bars here are in the range of $600 - $1000 approx.
Regards,
John |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 09, 2010 - 08:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Warwickshire
Posts: 2608
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Powerrabbit wrote:
If a tractor was manufacured before the legislation came in there is no legal requirement that a roll-over safetey device has to be fitted.
Disagree with that. At the time the law was introduced we had to fit approved anti-roll bars and everyone did. Manufacturers were in a mad rush to get them approved and there was even panic at the time that it wouldn't be possible to get roll bars for some of the obscure make/models of tractors.
I am sure that if the law didn't state that all tractors had to be fitted with them most tractor owners wouldn't have bothered. It MAY have been the case that if no one else other than the owner was ever going to drive the tractor then you didn't have to fit them but if you had employees/casuals/friends driving them you were supposed to fit them. |
_________________
Three is twee, four is poor, but 6 just clicks........Scooby
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Powerrabbit
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 09, 2010 - 08:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Devon
Posts: 3027
Status: Offline
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| It was advisory on pre-cabbed tractors to fit a ROPS but it was acknowledged that some tractors were unable or not practical to be fitted with one because of age or design. Where the main driver was the owner you were supposed to obtain an exemption. |
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broadsword
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 09, 2010 - 09:07 PM
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Joined: Jun 12, 2008
Holmfirth, Huddersfield
Posts: 901
Status: Offline
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Beginning to wish I hadn`t stook my twopenneth into the discussion on this one  .
Looks like I`ll have to run around a bit longer with an uncabbed/unframed 73 990 - `well thats how I bought it officer....really I never realised that.....is that right I know very little about tractors you see officer` 
Cheers
Andy |
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john1694
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 11, 2010 - 10:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 12, 2009
Cumbria
Posts: 675
Status: Offline
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Let me simplify things as best I can.
A tractor manufactured before legislation was passed regarding safety frames ( ROPS/FOPS ) need not be fitted with said protection for display ( show ) purposes. Arguably it needen't be fitted if the owner ONLY is driving it. However - if anything happens, and the HSE become involved, the owner WILL be liable, even if it is him that is injured.
Any modifications will, unless certified by recognised inspectors, render the frame "useless" in the event of an injury/death arising that could have been prevented by the frame ( and this is in the hands of lawyers of the day...).
The legislation covering ROPS/FOPS is unrelated to safety guards that must ALWAYS be fitted regardless of the operator/owner.
The simplest way of looking at this is as follows:
If you ONLY show the tractor, and only YOU drive it, you MAY win a court-case win should an accident occur involving you, in which a frame could have reduced injuries.
In all other cases, fit a roll-bar/frame.
Never modify a roll-bar/frame without getting it officially certified. |
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broadsword
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 11, 2010 - 11:08 PM
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Joined: Jun 12, 2008
Holmfirth, Huddersfield
Posts: 901
Status: Offline
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Hi John,
cheers for all the advice and info on this - this topic has cropped up before and allthough its looks like I am disagreeing, your points are all correct and valid.
Problem I have is I bought a 1973 square wing 990 with the cab taken off allready, I have a garage with approx 1 and a half foot clearence from the top of the bonnet. Went and fully restored her(pre any knowledge of tractors and cabs etc) so do not want to to leave the old gal parked outside over winter. The frustating things with the square wing models is you cannot retro fit a round fender roll bar(genuine approved one) due to the mountings - there was one on e-bay ages ago and I nearly bought it( a proper DB approved folding one with plate on) but then realised it would not fit.
I would prefer a roll bar fitted but the only option is the one that bolts onto the top of the square wings, the things are so heavy its impractical (though not impossible) to keep taking on and off to take in and out of a garage (car garage) all the time.
Next best thing would be a proper roll frame for the square wing but to adapt it folding style. Me being the person I am would have the sort of brackets and folding mechanism that would tow the titanic but as you say it would need to be tested by HSE in triplicate!!! - in the mean time impounding my tractor for not having a roll frame and involving 5 years of testing!!!!
To be fair I tend to agree with HSE and regulations, we all at times think its a pain but it is there for a reason, its just sometimes you fell its the old case of `can`t do right for doing wrong`  .
Hope this explains my situation, my last post is a reflection of my sense of humour (or ability to cause offence,its all the same really ) and just that. This hopefully(!!!) is my last say on this as per your earlier post is WITHOUT PREDUJICE - your points are all valid and correct.
All I can say is when the cropmaster arrives at least thats well before the legislation came in
Cheers for all the input
Andy |
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